59 replies to this topic

[Bottesford]

Yes agree - many people say 'the worst is over' once you hit Feb even though you're only just making it to the coldest time of year.
Just shows how light levels and day length are so important in determining how a time of year feels.

[Tellow]

 Bottesford, on 02 February 2012 - 22:28 , said:

Yes agree - many people say 'the worst is over' once you hit Feb even though you're only just making it to the coldest time of year.
Just shows how light levels and day length are so important in determining how a time of year feels.

Yeah not to mention how people always stereotype 'cold' with 'wet' and 'warm' with 'sunny'. In Summer this is true but in Winter it's the other way around!

[damianslaw]

I think the meterological definition of the seasons reflects mother nature but not necessarily seasonal weather conditions.

March - sees the start of early spring growth and lambs etc are born whilst the birds are busy preparing for the breeding season. There is often a marked north-south split in March, with the north esp Scotland still locked in a late winter weather state, with snow still very likely esp on the hills - indeed I would argue on higher ground in the north March is still firmly winter. Whereas in the south, early spring warmth can quickly envelop the country when an anticyclone sets up over the country. Hours of daylight are also much longer by March as long as late sept/early oct and therefore it doesn't often fell like winter, indeed by late feb it does begin to feel much lighter as the suns gains greater strength.

Summer - June is definately summer.

[greybing]

 Bottesford, on 02 February 2012 - 21:19 , said:

Now keep calm everyone it's only a discussion!

They should remain as they are as the statistics show the three coldest months to be winter and the three warmest to be summer.
But even if that leaves you not convinced the overriding factor is the position of the sun in the sky. The days are longest and the sun highest May to July. The days are shortest and the sun lowest November to January. This is the starting point. Now added thermal lag in (lets say 1 month...) and low and behold the seasons fit our current pattern.

If I could offer any potential change it would only be that November feels like a winter month since it is generally quite cold and very dark. Many people I speak to actually think of November as winter anyway. Still I wouldn't really make that change though.

agreed

[Gavin D]

This is how I would have it,

January to March - Winter

April to June - Spring

July to September - Summer

October to December - Autumn

[March Blizzard]

Interesting topic. If you look at the stats March and December are closer to one another, temperature wise, than many people think or realise. At only 1.2 Degrees apart (CET) they are closer than say October and November, June and July, and even their respective warmer neighbours (November and April). It's a classic...no, its the example of low solar output vs seasonal lag. I like to summarise it like this: December inherits any warmth, but makes none of it's own, whereas March is the exact opposite, it inherits no warmth, but begins to create it's own.

The "early March vs early December" debate in this topic particularly interests me, and it's something ive mulled over before; is early March (1-15) actually colder, on average, than early December (1-15). If you take two very close months for temperature and chop off the warmer half of one and the colder half of the other, do the remains actually compare? It would be great if someone actually had the hard facts to put the argument to bed. It would certainly settle a long standing argument between me and my brother - who's birthday is colder? His December 14th or my March 11?

It seems like most years, in the UK at least, the increasing sun strength in March just edges out December's lack thereof, but it's often a close one. We must also remember that we have been relatively spoilt by March in the last 20 years or so, with only the odd exception its often been warmer than average and is actually the month that has seen the biggest rise in temperature in the CET series (+0.6). I think this might also play a part in the average joe thinking March is much warmer than december, especially after the last few Decembers. In a sense people have forgotten just how cold and snowy March can potentially be, especially in the early part of the month. Lets not forget, it took the severe cold of Jan 2010 to crack the -20 acheived in March 2001, a record the month clung onto for nearly 9 years! Lets also not forget that the deepest snow recorded in the UK, and indeed the world, were both recorded in March.

Also, those of us writing off winter already should take heart in the fact that the lowest temperature of the year has occured in March 16 times in the last 110 years.

The facts don't lie, December is colder than March, but March is certainly no slouch when it comes to cold and snow, it's just been kind to us for the last few decades!

[Aaron]

The only way March and December are different is the fact that December has much shorter daylight hours, so snow will last longer in December and daytime temperatures are usually lower..

However, temperatures in March 2001 fell to -21C and I've seen some impressive snowfalls in March - the last decent March snowfall here was in 2008 so we're overdue a snowfall in March surely, away from Scotland and NI which got some in 2010?

[reef]

 March Blizzard, on 10 February 2012 - 10:48 , said:

Interesting topic. If you look at the stats March and December are closer to one another, temperature wise, than many people think or realise. At only 1.2 Degrees apart (CET) they are closer than say October and November, June and July, and even their respective warmer neighbours (November and April). It's a classic...no, its the example of low solar output vs seasonal lag. I like to summarise it like this: December inherits any warmth, but makes none of it's own, whereas March is the exact opposite, it inherits no warmth, but begins to create it's own.

The "early March vs early December" debate in this topic particularly interests me, and it's something ive mulled over before; is early March (1-15) actually colder, on average, than early December (1-15). If you take two very close months for temperature and chop off the warmer half of one and the colder half of the other, do the remains actually compare? It would be great if someone actually had the hard facts to put the argument to bed. It would certainly settle a long standing argument between me and my brother - who's birthday is colder? His December 14th or my March 11?

It seems like most years, in the UK at least, the increasing sun strength in March just edges out December's lack thereof, but it's often a close one. We must also remember that we have been relatively spoilt by March in the last 20 years or so, with only the odd exception its often been warmer than average and is actually the month that has seen the biggest rise in temperature in the CET series (+0.6). I think this might also play a part in the average joe thinking March is much warmer than december, especially after the last few Decembers. In a sense people have forgotten just how cold and snowy March can potentially be, especially in the early part of the month. Lets not forget, it took the severe cold of Jan 2010 to crack the -20 acheived in March 2001, a record the month clung onto for nearly 9 years! Lets also not forget that the deepest snow recorded in the UK, and indeed the world, were both recorded in March.

Also, those of us writing off winter already should take heart in the fact that the lowest temperature of the year has occured in March 16 times in the last 110 years.

The facts don't lie, December is colder than March, but March is certainly no slouch when it comes to cold and snow, it's just been kind to us for the last few decades!

Certainly at my location, December 1st-15th averages 5.4C compared to March 1st-15th which has a mean of 6.0C (1981-2010 period).

"December inherits any warmth, but makes none of it's own, whereas March is the exact opposite, it inherits no warmth, but begins to create it's own." is a statement I agree with. The main 'warmth' in early December is from higher minima, due to thermal lag from the Summer/Autumn, whereas in early March minima are very low indeed and its solar heating and warmer maxima that give the higher mean temp.

I think the issue is people try and paint the seasons based on light levels and what weather they think a season should have. I always get confused when it hits 1st March and people suddenly switch to looking for warmth and disregard the chance of snow. The mean temp at the beginning of March is similar to the second half of December and statistically snow is just as likely (though can be more temporary).

The current system is the best comprimise but there will always be exceptions.

And March 11th has a mean of 6.6C here compared to 5.4C on December 14th

[March Blizzard]

"And March 11th has a mean of 6.6C here compared to 5.4C on December 14th"

...I might keep that one quiet! Seriously though 14th Dec, here at least, usually feels more Autumnal - Low/mild maxima and similar minima whereas Mar 11 can have quite balmy maxima but nearly always has lower minima. Oh well!

It's also interesting that the lowest temperature of the year (since 1900) has occured on 30th Dec 6 times, more than any other date. Second place is...3rd March, believe it or not, with 5 (joint with 14 Feb).

Interestingly, Dec 14 has never featured, Mar 11 has!

[Bottesford]

 March Blizzard, on 10 February 2012 - 10:48 , said:

Interesting topic. If you look at the stats March and December are closer to one another, temperature wise, than many people think or realise. At only 1.2 Degrees apart (CET) they are closer than say October and November, June and July, and even their respective warmer neighbours (November and April). It's a classic...no, its the example of low solar output vs seasonal lag. I like to summarise it like this: December inherits any warmth, but makes none of it's own, whereas March is the exact opposite, it inherits no warmth, but begins to create it's own.

Very much agree- and like that statement!
I've thought plenty about that sort of stuff too. It's similar with June and September too - again with June generating its own heat much more than September does. I much prefer March and June of those four as I prefer a large solar input to get warmth instead of latent ground heat which for me always feels more 'damp' or decaying.

[A Scottish Winter's Tale]

If you live in the parts of England that have enjoyed the cold and snow earlier this month then you may agree with my point that in recent years, December has been more of winter month than February, let alone March! I think you could have a greater argument in saying that February could become a Spring month!

However, February has had a history of having the coldest and snowiest weather so really it should stay as a winter month but there are some simularities between February and March.

February can have sunny, mild Spring like conditions; March can have snowy, cold, Winter like conditions. Then you have - February has a history of having very cold and snowy weather; March has a history of having warmth and longer days with sunshine. When you look at this you can see that February and March should stay in their respective seasons.

So, If I had the choice - how would I change the Seasons?

Although they are good right now, I would expand the two main seasons of summer and winter to encapsulate the period that their typical conditions are likely; I would shorten the two transitionary seasons of spring and autumn to encapsulate the period of unique weather that wouldn't fit into the two main seasons.

For example, Summer and Winter is the land and Spring and Autumn is the bridges that link the two. The land is larger than the bridges.

So, my new look Seasons would be:

Winter: Mid November - Mid March
Spring: Mid March - Mid May
Summer: Mid May - Mid September
Autumn: Mid September - Mid November

[Eugene]

February is definately a winter month to me even mild weather doesnt really bring that proper taste of spring that mid to late march can frequently offer, also although its the lighest winter month it is still dark by 6 pm onwards when most people would like to go out in the evening which they can start to do early evening for abit around mid march onwards and definately once the clocks go forward last sunday morning in March.

I really think the two week freeze we just had is just a taster of Februaries to come in the next 10 to 15 years, to me February is the best winter month due to more daylight but still plenty of cosy darkness, cold ground temps, colder seas around our shores and a sometimes very cold continent.

[robthefool]

March is most definitely not a winter month, at least not here, by a long long shot.

March is lighter, warmer, sunnier and drier than December and brings with it the first warm days of the year. You can even get sunburnt towards the end of March if you try hard enough!

For this area, I think the seasons are more suited to the following periods, judging by the weather here:

Winter - December 15th to February 20th
Spring - February 21st to May 5th
Summer - May 6th to September 20th
Autumn - September 21st to December 14th

[johnholmes]

 March Blizzard, on 10 February 2012 - 10:48 , said:

an interesting post-welcome to Net Wx. I shall go and do checks on my March and December stats, there are 14 years or so to 'play' with.
Could you pop your nearest town into your avatar so that we all know where your reports are coming from please?
thanks

[Aaron]

The reason I include March as more 'winter' then early December at least, is because March is not warm, it is not sunny, snowfall is common, even if it doesn't last long (does snowfall EVER last very long in the UK, regardless of what month it is?) and it's rarely frost free. Since 2000, snowfall in March has been more common then December and far, far more common then November which has been pretty rare since the new millennium. In fact, I can count on one hand how many December's have had note-worthy snow so early in the month over the past 15 years (according to memory): 1 - December 2010.

Edited by Aaron, 18 February 2012 - 19:30 .

[Tellow]

 robthefool, on 18 February 2012 - 15:58 , said:

March is most definitely not a winter month, at least not here, by a long long shot.

March is lighter, warmer, sunnier and drier than December and brings with it the first warm days of the year. You can even get sunburnt towards the end of March if you try hard enough!

For this area, I think the seasons are more suited to the following periods, judging by the weather here:

Winter - December 15th to February 20th
Spring - February 21st to May 5th
Summer - May 6th to September 20th
Autumn - September 21st to December 14th

I realised Summer was a bit longer than winter, but not by two months?

[Polar Maritime]

In my location the seasons are pretty much spot on weather wise. Nov/March can also bring cold wintery weather here also.

The seasons for the uk on a whole are very well layed out over the year for the type of weather patterns we get.

[robthefool]

 Tellow, on 19 February 2012 - 09:08 , said:

I realised Summer was a bit longer than winter, but not by two months?

Well winter down here is usually a carry on of Autumn until about mid December, and the same about Spring usually starting earlier - today is actually a very Spring like day here.

I include most of May as a summer month because more often than not it is a warm month here where we start seeing regular warm temperatures. The average max here is about 18C, which is what some places in Scotland have in mid July!

September for much the same reason, the averages here are about 20C maxes and 12C mins - still summerlike. I have never noticed a 'drop' that you feel when the temperatures suddenly start getting cooler before mid September.

[reef]

 Tellow, on 19 February 2012 - 09:08 , said:

I realised Summer was a bit longer than winter, but not by two months?

This is why its silly to label the seasons based on the weather at the time rather than by the date. Early December might be Autumn-like in London on occasion, but on average it most certainly isnt.

Just because the temperature in London in September is similar to parts of Scotland in high summer, doesnt mean it should be called summer. Likewise, if you consider the average temps in winter further north, you might be able to 'argue' that in that sense London doesnt have a winter at all, when obviously it does.

London isnt a particularly good example anyway, as its a pretty unique climate due to urban heat island effects. Hop just outside of the M25 and the mean max temp in May is 15-16C with an average of an airfrost every 1-2 years. Definitely not summerlike!

[Tellow]

 reef, on 19 February 2012 - 17:16 , said:

This is why its silly to label the seasons based on the weather at the time rather than by the date. Early December might be Autumn-like in London on occasion, but on average it most certainly isnt.

Just because the temperature in London in September is similar to parts of Scotland in high summer, doesnt mean it should be called summer. Likewise, if you consider the average temps in winter further north, you might be able to 'argue' that in that sense London doesnt have a winter at all, when obviously it does.

London isnt a particularly good example anyway, as its a pretty unique climate due to urban heat island effects. Hop just outside of the M25 and the mean max temp in May is 15-16C with an average of an airfrost every 1-2 years. Definitely not summerlike!

Yes, probably wiser to use examples of places in the southwest such as Plymouth, who have overall milder Winters and cooler Summers than many places in the UK.

Anyway I heard that Summer is longer than Winter in the Northern Hemisphere because we are closer to the sun in Winter but tilted away from it. Apparently, the reverse applies in the Southern Hemisphere.

Edited by Tellow, 20 February 2012 - 07:54 .