634 replies to this topic

[Scorcher]

SP1986, on 02 January 2012 - 17:20 , said:

This is a very very crude way of looking at things (I'm not having a go at you by the way), it's something that people are taught and whilst it is generally true, coastal areas up north can start earlier in Spring than further down south in some cases (although even up here were behind the likes of Cornwall and the south coast). Often I speak to drivers who can testify that Manchester for example on the same latitude is 3-4 weeks behind here in terms of Spring growth. Also in the past 3 winters when I've travelled down to Birmingham I've noticed leaves grow on trees here a lot earlier than there.

I think this is quite speculative to be honest, and I think 3-4 weeks is an exaggeration. I travel around the country quite a lot and the differences in growth in spring are usually quite minimal over such short distances. Having travelled a lot between Manchester and Cheltenham last year I can confirm that there was a noticeable difference in growth in early April but even over this distance of about 140 miles south it wasn't 3-4 weeks difference. Also I think it's a generalisation to talk about growth in periods of time- a really warm period (I'm thinking early May 2008 after a rather cool April) can result in a sudden transformation with a huge amount of plant and leaf growth in a couple of days.

[Portland Paul]

SP1986, on 02 January 2012 - 21:40 , said:

It's not so much about temperatures, but I can be absolutely sure when it comes to February that unless there is a period of notable cold spells, it does genuinely start to feel springlike - feeling is not something you can attach statistics to, so it's going to be almost impossible to come to any kind of conclusion.

It's probably due in some part to a sun that is gathering strength, after a weak sun during November and December the pick up probably causes a psychological reaction whereby things feel more positive, or Springlike in terms of light etc.

I would agree with that, as February 2011 (mildest for 9 years) didn't feel spring-like at all, except on 24th, as it was often very dull and damp.
In contrast, the previous cold February 2010 had a good number of days that felt spring-like, due to dry and sunny days and positive warmth to the sun out of the cold north-easterly breeze.

[Thundery wintry showers]

Geordiesnow, on 02 January 2012 - 20:16 , said:

Anyways I like others hope for a cooler April so it bucks the trend somewhat and one thing I like about spring is that we can even get snow showers from a NW'ly due to the sun strength and a cold airmass over land developing shower clouds. I always remember the incident in April 2008(?) where we had showers during the day but in the afternoon we had one shower which started as rain which turned into very heavy snow but the ground was too warm/wet for anything to settle yet I remember the Sunderland-Fulham game being abandaned because of a waterlogged pitch.

I think you're recalling the unexpected snowstorm on the 8th April 2006, when a particularly large cumulonimbus cell mid-afternoon produced a heavy shower that started off as rain, then turned to small hail, and then turned to snow, with some short-lived accumulations on the ground. According to my records the temperature dropped from 4.8C to 1.0C in half an hour.

April 2008 had the most significant accumulation of snow in the South Tyneside area for April since at least the 1980s. About 4 centimetres from east-coast snow showers early on the 7th, following frequent wet snow on the 6th. The other instances of lying snow in April here were on the 12th April 1998 (2cm) and the 13th April 1999 (dusting, but covering a large majority of the ground). During the cold snaps of 18th-20th April 1995 and 8th April 2005 sleet and snow showers failed to produce accumulations but hail showers provided some coverings- about an inch on the afternoon of the 20th April 1995 following a particularly potent hailstorm.

Yeah, I'd certainly fancy at least a couple of potent northerly/north-westerly outbreaks during this coming April. I certainly wouldn't be averse to some warm sunshine mixed in either, especially if warm sunshine and cold snaps follow straight after another, but after three consistently warm anticyclonic Aprils in a row, I don't particularly fancy a fourth.

[feb1991blizzard]

Was there not a potent cold blast bringing widespread disruption in the early 80s in late April, i seem to remember someone posting a Newspaper article last spring, i think it was John Holmes, there was massive drifts in the pennines

[Thundery wintry showers]

Late April 1981, when after a warm first half, cold northerlies pushed down during the last third of the month, initially bringing sunshine and wintry showers, and then a low stalled over the south and gave heavy prolonged snowfalls to many parts of the country accompanied by very strong winds.

[feb1991blizzard]

This must have been the one.

http://www.meteociel...=0&map=0&mode=0


I was too young to remember it but it just shows you what you can get out of season, that is an event i would have loved to have witnessed,

Edited by feb1991blizzard, 03 January 2012 - 15:07 .

[robthefool]

Unfortunately, I don't think I've ever seen any real April snow (settling) The one time that we did get snow in 2008 I was in Paris so I missed it!

[Tellow]

This topic is a bit of an overlap of the Spring Snowfall thread I created over a month ago in the Historical section. Probably best to keep discussion in this thread based on hopes (and later prospects) for Spring 2012, and talk about any past Spring events over there.

Edited by Tellow, 03 January 2012 - 17:11 .

[Bottesford]

Eugene, on 03 January 2012 - 04:59 , said:

Got to say this is a strange time to start such a thread when its felt like spring already this winter and you wouldnt start autumn threads in only very early July when heat can last until october 1st like last year.

We had a winter thread started in early July nevermind autumn!
At no point has it felt spring like during this winter. It's felt autumn like perhaps - mild with wind but very low solar input. Spring to me is 'cold Earth - warm Sun' whereas its been more 'warm Earth - cold Sun' this winter.

There can be no accurate predictions at this range but only hopes...
For me I'd like to see some early warmth in March - those days around 15-16c with light winds and sunshine. Just to feel like winter is finally being shaken off.
Then I think we're long overdue some hefty wintry showers during April off the back of northerlies and north-westerlies. That weather where one minute its sunny (and feeling warm in that sun) the next it's snowing or raining heavily.
Mix in some calm periods too (cold nights, warm days) then once we get to mid May switch on the true hair dryer of deep southerlies... Drag up tons of continental heat and let that span across the entire summer giving endless hot sunshine mixed with some hefty thunderstorms.

[feb1991blizzard]

Bottesford, on 03 January 2012 - 17:31 , said:

We had a winter thread started in early July nevermind autumn!
At no point has it felt spring like during this winter. It's felt autumn like perhaps - mild with wind but very low solar input. Spring to me is 'cold Earth - warm Sun' whereas its been more 'warm Earth - cold Sun' this winter.

There can be no accurate predictions at this range but only hopes...
For me I'd like to see some early warmth in March - those days around 15-16c with light winds and sunshine. Just to feel like winter is finally being shaken off.
Then I think we're long overdue some hefty wintry showers during April off the back of northerlies and north-westerlies. That weather where one minute its sunny (and feeling warm in that sun) the next it's snowing or raining heavily.
Mix in some calm periods too (cold nights, warm days) then once we get to mid May switch on the true hair dryer of deep southerlies... Drag up tons of continental heat and let that span across the entire summer giving endless hot sunshine mixed with some hefty thunderstorms.

It was started in May actually because i was the one that started it!! OON changed the title though.

[Tellow]

I think to some people a thread about Spring started in January is more surprising than a Winter thread started in July, as for the majority of this forum's members Winter is the season they look forward to the most. Whilst most members are indeed looking for a Summer with intense heat and thunderstorms, their longing for a cold snowy Winter is far greater.

Edited by Tellow, 03 January 2012 - 18:42 .

[SP1986]

Scorcher, on 03 January 2012 - 11:16 , said:

I think this is quite speculative to be honest, and I think 3-4 weeks is an exaggeration. I travel around the country quite a lot and the differences in growth in spring are usually quite minimal over such short distances. Having travelled a lot between Manchester and Cheltenham last year I can confirm that there was a noticeable difference in growth in early April but even over this distance of about 140 miles south it wasn't 3-4 weeks difference. Also I think it's a generalisation to talk about growth in periods of time- a really warm period (I'm thinking early May 2008 after a rather cool April) can result in a sudden transformation with a huge amount of plant and leaf growth in a couple of days.

Perhaps, that is true of course it depends on the extent of the conditions around. The driver (at work), might well have been commenting on that year. It definitely is usually earlier though here, though by what time is perhaps not as clear cut, like you suggest.

[Isolated Frost]

My favourite season is spring. I love the deep cold and snow possible in winter, and love the festivities. I love summer due to the long days and beautiful sunshine, heat and overall atmosphere. I love autumn for the coziness, the storms, first frosts and late heat.

But I LOVE spring... the massive diurnal ranges, the amazing evaporative cooling and heavy snow showers... the fact that it's so sunny usually and the days are generally very long, also the fact that Tm air is not as strong, and therefore the 'stratiform' is at it's lowest.

Frost, snow, rain, ice, sun, heat, cold, wind and more... I just love spring.

[Chris K]

I hope we have a more "typical" British Spring - Early morning frosts but then warm sunshine and showers(even maybe some wintry ones thrown in). Then a gradual warm up as we approach late spring ready for Summer.
I just don't want any lengthy period of mild, dull, grey weather with no end.

One thing I particularly would like to experience again though, is the potential plumes of warmth that can pay us a visit from the continent in mid-late Spring, not really for the sticky heat, but for the big thunderstorms from the South that can come with it.
Friday 9th May 2008 was the last lengthy thunderstorm I think in the Bristol/S.Gloucestershire area. It was a spectacular light show during late evening that lasted a couple of hours from what I can remember. In comparison the past couple of years have been pretty poor for thunderstorms here. Pulse type thundery showers rarely amount to much if they drift in from the West/SW because they always weaken as they travel up the Bristol Channel/Severn Estuary. They always then build up again after passing me (basically what happened for the whole of 2011).

P.S - If anyone has the synoptics/charts, or knows where I can look for them, for what setup caused these thunderstorms on May 9th 2008 I'd love to see it for a learning perspective I think a front or trough moved up from the SE across S England and headed towards Midlands & Wales?)

Edited by Bugganuts, 03 January 2012 - 19:11 .

[Mr_Data]

Eugene, on 03 January 2012 - 04:59 , said:

Got to say this is a strange time to start such a thread when its felt like spring already this winter and you wouldnt start autumn threads in only very early July when heat can last until october 1st like last year.

Is it as strange as writing winter 2012-13 off like you did not long after you posted this?

Edited by Mr_Data, 03 January 2012 - 19:24 .

[Thundery wintry showers]

Wetterzentrale archive chart for the 9th May 2008:
http://www.wetterzen...00120080509.gif
Met Office FAX chart:
http://www.wetterzen...cka20080509.gif

Looks like the thunderstorm development was heavily assisted by a weak Atlantic frontal system pushing against the very warm continental air that had been establishing over the British Isles- Norwich made it to 27C that day.
In contrast to the warm sunny first half, the second half of May 2008 was cloudy for most. However, on the 28th it was the turn of East Anglia to get thunderstorms from a continental import:
http://www.wetterzen...cka20080528.gif
Although the surface winds were easterly, the thunderstorms headed north-north-westwards up from France through East Anglia giving a notable overnight lightning show. I imagine other parts of southern and eastern England got hit too, but certainly remember the thunderstorms in Norwich.

On the other hand it's worth noting that continental imports often struggle to make it over the English Channel due to the relatively cold seas at that time of year, and many April/May thunderstorms from continental airmasses form over the UK itself, as happened widely on the 11th and 12th May 2006 ahead of a southward-advancing cold front. The 1st May 2005 had a good example of an early "Spanish plume" thunderstorm setup where we got a combination of imported and homegrown storms, many of which developed overnight.

[weather09]

Thundery wintry showers, on 03 January 2012 - 19:24 , said:

.

On the other hand it's worth noting that continental imports often struggle to make it over the English Channel due to the relatively cold seas at that time of year, and many April/May thunderstorms from continental airmasses form over the UK itself...

Relatively cold SSTs do have a negative effect on thunderstorm longevity, especially surface-based storms, as there lacks the supply of warm, moist air in the PBL. So I'd say much depends on where in the atmosphere the storm is originating -- i.e., is it rooted in the PBL or aloft in the low-levels?

March 2010 saw thunderstorms organise in the vicinity of a cold front and push up from the channel across southern and south-eastern counties. And that's in March!

Edited by weather09, 03 January 2012 - 19:55 .

[summer blizzard]

Tellow, on 03 January 2012 - 00:34 , said:

Quite surprised that April has the warmest CET day, with the cool Spring nights.



Yes, it also sort of reminds me of the Death Valley in late Autumn or early Spring.

August 12th sorry.

Edited by summer blizzard, 03 January 2012 - 21:32 .

[Chris K]

Thundery wintry showers, on 03 January 2012 - 19:24 , said:

Wetterzentrale archive chart for the 9th May 2008:
http://www.wetterzen...00120080509.gif
Met Office FAX chart:
http://www.wetterzen...cka20080509.gif

Looks like the thunderstorm development was heavily assisted by a weak Atlantic frontal system pushing against the very warm continental air that had been establishing over the British Isles- Norwich made it to 27C that day.
In contrast to the warm sunny first half, the second half of May 2008 was cloudy for most. However, on the 28th it was the turn of East Anglia to get thunderstorms from a continental import:
http://www.wetterzen...cka20080528.gif
Although the surface winds were easterly, the thunderstorms headed north-north-westwards up from France through East Anglia giving a notable overnight lightning show. I imagine other parts of southern and eastern England got hit too, but certainly remember the thunderstorms in Norwich.

On the other hand it's worth noting that continental imports often struggle to make it over the English Channel due to the relatively cold seas at that time of year, and many April/May thunderstorms from continental airmasses form over the UK itself, as happened widely on the 11th and 12th May 2006 ahead of a southward-advancing cold front. The 1st May 2005 had a good example of an early "Spanish plume" thunderstorm setup where we got a combination of imported and homegrown storms, many of which developed overnight.

Thanks for that info - very helpful!

[Harve]

Portland Paul, on 03 January 2012 - 11:39 , said:

I would agree with that, as February 2011 (mildest for 9 years) didn't feel spring-like at all, except on 24th, as it was often very dull and damp.
In contrast, the previous cold February 2010 had a good number of days that felt spring-like, due to dry and sunny days and positive warmth to the sun out of the cold north-easterly breeze.

I see what you mean. Wintry shower and sunny spell setups I feel have just as much a place in spring as thunderstorms do. A, cold bright day in April / May not getting close to double figures feels far warmer and pleasant than a mild, moist depression at 15c with gales, which I'd place in autumn if I wanted seasons to behave as expected.