181 replies to this topic

[Zerouali lives]

My annual golf tournament at Braemar on Saturday and there appeared to be less snow than last year. I did see 2 very small patches on the dramatic looking eastern face of Lochnager. The mountain with all the snow on it last year (the most stand out mountain as one looks NW from Braemar golf course - not sure, might be South Top) had considerably less this year with maybe 2 or 3 small patches barely visible. Sorry no camera to take shots!

[firefly]

Zerouali,

The mountain you refer to is Beinn a'Bhuird. It had a huge wreath on its south-facing slope last year on the 1st July. This patch (called the Laird's Tablecloth, on account of its name) was split in two this year, with much ground between the two existing patches.

For sure there's less than this year, but about the same as 2007. The attached panorama was taken from the top of Glas Maol, and if you zoom in you can see most of the Cairngorms big mountains, complete with the remaining snow patches that face S-E etc. Many more are hidden, obviously, but this gives a good idea of what's there.

For those interested, the mountain with the most snow is Ben Macdui, which is in the centre of the picture. The Laird's Tablecloth is towards the right of the picture, before Ben A'an (and its torrs).

Attached Thumbnails

• 

Edited by firefly, 07 July 2009 - 12:56 .

[Norrance]

Firefly

I couldn't open your photo of the Lairds Tablecloth for some reason.

Still a patch of snow hanging on on Ben More at the weekend. Did not go up Glen Lochay so not sure if any left on Heasgarnich?

Sorry, just noticed that there is a post above about Ben More's snow patch.

Edited by Norrance, 07 July 2009 - 18:37 .

[firefly]

Don't worry, Norrance, I've heard from a source on south Loch Tay that Beinn Heasgarnich's snow is now gone. Actually, it went a couple of weeks ago, which is unusually early.

I would think that Ben More's snow is either in its last day or possibly 2. My south Tay contact can see it from his window, so will get an accurate melt date.

[Zerouali lives]

Firefly,

I noticed there were 55 survivals during the summer of 1994!

Do you know where some of the more uncommon/low lying patches were that year?

Thanks

[firefly]

Sure do! I know where most of them where...

1994's lowest altitude survival was at Lochan nan Gabhar, Ben A'an. It was at 935m on a north-easterly aspect. That year loads of snow survived that doesn't otherwise, such as Creag Meagaidh.

A northeast-facing patch at 840m nearly survived in 1972 at Coire na Ciste on Cairn Gorm. Still 15m long on 11 October, it would have lasted if heavy snow had fallen as in some early Octobers, but it vanished by 4 November.

The lowest patch of snow ever to survive on Scotland's hills (that I am aware of) was at 740m on Ben A'an at this location. This happened in 1951 and 1967.

Other places were snow has survived where you wouldn't expect it to have are the Mamores and the Grey Corries!

[osmposm]

What a fantastic panorama, Firefly - THANK YOU!!

[CatchMyDrift]

firefly, on 8 Jul 2009, 07:17 AM, said:

I would think that Ben More's snow is either in its last day or possibly 2. My south Tay contact can see it from his window, so will get an accurate melt date.

I would expect that the Fat Lady is gargling in preparation to sing the funeral rites for Ben More's snow patch, but has she started warbling yet?

[firefly]

Haven't heard if Ben More's gone, but I expect it has. Probably a couple of days ago.

Also, what a difference a month makes. Check out the two pictures (courtesy of Stuart Gordon), taken exactly a month apart (14th June and July) at the Feith Buidhe slabs, Cairngorms. Twenty feet of melting?

Attached Thumbnails

• 
• 

[Terminal Moraine]

Blimey! It really does make you realise how difficult it is for any snow patch to survive a whole summer and through into the next 'season' when that amount of snow can disappear in a month.

[stewfox]

Terminal Moraine, on 15 Jul 2009, 08:11 AM, said:

Blimey! It really does make you realise how difficult it is for any snow patch to survive a whole summer and through into the next 'season' when that amount of snow can disappear in a month.

So how many patches left now ?

[CatchMyDrift]

Terminal Moraine, on 15 Jul 2009, 08:11 AM, said:

Blimey! It really does make you realise how difficult it is for any snow patch to survive a whole summer and through into the next 'season' when that amount of snow can disappear in a month.

Best of it is that the snow patch in the pic probably collapsed and melted in a day or two. Fragile things snow patches.

[firefly]

stewfox, on 15 July 2009 - 21:38 , said:

So how many patches left now ?

Still lots left. We won't start talking specific numbers until about the end of August. Still in the hundreds at present.

CatchMyDrift, on 18 July 2009 - 00:08 , said:

Best of it is that the snow patch in the pic probably collapsed and melted in a day or two. Fragile things snow patches.

No, I don't think that's right. The snow that you are referring to will have melted slowly. The only time when patches crack up and collapse in on themselves is when they are being melted from the bottom, as when a patch sits on bare bedrock. Even this takes a while, and certainly more than a couple of days.

I was up the Ben Nevis range of hills yesterday (Aonach Mor & Aonach Beag), and the results of my journey are here:

Encountered 3 patches that exceeded 200m long, and many more that were smaller. Going back for a look there on the 22nd August if anyone's interested!

[CatchMyDrift]

firefly, on 19 July 2009 - 22:16 , said:

No, I don't think that's right. The snow that you are referring to will have melted slowly. The only time when patches crack up and collapse in on themselves is when they are being melted from the bottom, as when a patch sits on bare bedrock. Even this takes a while, and certainly more than a couple of days.

Shows what I know about snow patches then firefly

I just thought by the look of it hollowed out from below that it may have fallen over, I have much to learn

[firefly]

If you fancy a day on the hill on the 22nd August then me and a couple of others are heading up to Ben Nevis to see the snow there. Details are here: http://www.winterhig...ad.php?2,106947

Cheers.

[CatchMyDrift]

firefly, on 20 July 2009 - 20:57 , said:

If you fancy a day on the hill on the 22nd August then me and a couple of others are heading up to Ben Nevis to see the snow there. Details are here: http://www.winterhig...ad.php?2,106947

Cheers.

Chance would be a fine thing, have a good one FF, enjoy.

[Norrance]

Firefly [or others],

I would be interested to know how many patches will survive into August outwith the Cairngorms / Nevis Range areas this year?

How will the answer compare with 2008?

Thanks

Nor.

[Cymro]

well with a cold spell of weather currently on the cards this should bear well for the snow patches shouldn't it? surly some could be around 4/5 years old if you think of the survivers from last year?

[firefly]

Ah, Norrance, I can tell you're a good Scot! No-one in England uses the word 'outwith', and I don't know how they get by without it! As for what snow will survive outwith Nevis Range and the Cairngorms into August, that's quite tricky...

The most southerly snow still extant in Scotland is a patch on Bidean nam Bian, between the Bidean itself and Stob Coire nam Beith (see attached picture). Farther east (and north), there are still a couple of reasonable sized patches on the Aisre Cham of Geal-charn (Ben Alder hills, see attached picture).

There will also be snow on the Strathfarrar hills (Sgurr na Lapaich etc), but I haven't seen a recent report, so can't comment on how much. For sure, there will still be some. I'm also reasonably confident Carn Eighe/Mam Sodhail will have a wee bit, but - again - I haven't seen any recent photographs to confirm that. Other than these, I'm scratching my head a wee bit to think what others there will be. None at Grey Corries or Mamores. None south of Glencoe. Nothing left on the Monadh Liath, either. There may possibly be a wee bit lurking here or there, but I can't imagine much will last into August.

As for how old some of the snow is... Nothing in Scotland is older than late 2006 (a year that saw all snow melt by October), so by my reckoning the snow that dates from this period (November/December 2006) are: Garbh Choire Mor, Braeriach (2 patches); Observatory Gully, Ben Nevis; Aonach Beag. In all, 4 patches that are approaching 3-years old.

Put it into perspective: when the snow melted at Garbh Choire Mor in 1996, it had been present for 37-years, as the last time it melted before that was 1959. I kid you not! I've uploaded some pictures of a snow-free Garbh Choire Mor from 1959 here. Compare that to the photos I took on the 27th September 2008, which are here*.

* - Two interesting things about that photograph are: 1) the impressive covering of pohlia wahlenbergii moss, which grows near to long-lying snow patches in Scotland, but is absent (apparently) from England. 2) I believe that on this day I observed Britain's highest recorded amphibian, which jumped out from behind the snow-patch at the top. Altitude was 3700ft, and the record was confirmed to me by the famous Scottish ecologist Adam Watson.

Attached Thumbnails

• 
• 

Edited by firefly, 28 July 2009 - 20:50 .

[Thundery wintry showers]

One thing that strikes me about the survival of Scottish snow is that whereas in continental Europe the retention of annual ice is commonly associated with how hot and dry the summers are, in Scotland it seems the winters are the bigger factor. For instance summer 1976 was hotter than 1959 yet some snow patches survived, and I remember 1990 and 1995 being down as years with quite high survival (frequent westerly winds and polar maritime incursions in the winter must have helped in all three cases, I think 1995 might also have been helped by repeated spring snowfalls but springs 1976 and 1990 were mostly mild).

I guess that 1959 will have suffered because spring, summer and autumn were all mild, February was very dry and although January was very cold and snowy in north Scotland it was also exceptional for persistence of northerly winds which will have caused a lot of the snow to accumulate on exposed south-facing slopes.

I've got a feeling that survival this year will be below last year but not exceptionally low (maybe close to the 6 that survived in 1999) but only time will tell.