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2009 - Snow-patches Surviving On Scottish Mountains


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#171 Solar Sausage

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 12:01

View Postfirefly, on 07 December 2009 - 09:54 , said:

Well done, TM! I'm not sure where you get your figures from, but if the March and May figures are correct then that would explain why so much snow fell. The patches that remained in 1967 were the biggest to survive in 1938-2009. At Alltan na Beinne on Beinn a' Bhuird[font="Tahoma"][size="2"], men skied on 780 m of snow in late August 1967; an incredible amount!


Now, that's what I call deep! How high was Ben Nevis that year?? :lol:

Sorry firefly...I know what you mean... :yahoo:
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#172 firefly

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 13:08

Ah, yes. Perhaps I should've made that clearer. Posted Image 780m of descent was ski-ed in August 1967.

#173 yeahbabyyeah

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 16:53

20-25 mtrs...that would be a crazy sight if cut straight through the middle!!!
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#174 firefly

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 19:14

View Postyeahbabyyeah, on 07 December 2009 - 16:53 , said:

20-25 mtrs...that would be a crazy sight if cut straight through the middle!!!
Indeed. However, you don't have to imagine too hard to see it. Below is a picture from the 22nd August 2008 at Ben Nevis, where myself and Blair Fyffe are shown beside the existing snow at Observatory Gully. We estimated the depth at 10m.

Posted Image

#175 Terminal Moraine

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 19:22

View Postfirefly, on 07 December 2009 - 09:54 , said:

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Well done, TM! I'm not sure where you get your figures from, but if the March and May figures are correct then that would explain why so much snow fell.

Thanks Firefly. All monthly data came from the Met' Office's 'Daily Weather Report Monthly Summary' and the Braemar snow data from the Met' Office's 'Snow survey of Great Britian' so about as trustworthy as it gets.
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#176 stewfox

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 22:58

View Postfirefly, on 07 December 2009 - 19:14 , said:

Indeed. However, you don't have to imagine too hard to see it. Below is a picture from the 22nd August 2008 at Ben Nevis, where myself and Blair Fyffe are shown beside the existing snow at Observatory Gully. We estimated the depth at 10m.


Its been a cold and snowy winter up there so far and I'm sure many more heavy snow falls to come.

Obvioulsy snow patch survival depends on the seasons ahead but I guess you start on a optimistic note for 2010 ?

#177 firefly

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 18:48

Whoops! Must put this thread on 'tracking' mode... :)

Let me give you the answer that my good friend and colleague Adam Watson gave in another thread on Winterhighland:

"Of course none of us can be sure about anything until the main spring thaw has exposed the locations and sizes of snow wreaths. That's an exciting sight every year, but I think will be more anticipated in 2010 than usual <...> but since mid December I've thought 2010 is unlikely to be a top year for autumn snowbeds. Firefly and I agreed this when he came to Deeside and the Mearns in late December.

First, a long snowy winter is not necessarily conducive to unusually many late snowbeds. This is particularly the case if most snowfall comes on north winds, or easterly such as this winter (predominantly NE and SE, though there has been some substantial snowfall and drifting from NW and other directions). Firefly makes this point well. Most long-lying snowbeds face NE, to a lesser extent E or SE. The deepest corries and other holes face these directions, associated with glaciers in the last glaciation occurring on these aspects and forming these corries and holes. Deep holes that face NE are shaded from the sun for much of the day, and crucially in the afternoon, when the sun has warmed air to its maximum for the day. Although many hollows and some corries face W or SW or NW, they are fewer and usually much shallower. Their topography affords little shade from sun during the warm part of the day, and snow depth cannot be massive because the hollow is too shallow.

In 1996 most snowfalls came from SE and there were huge wreaths in June and July on NW-facing slopes, but the deep NE-facing holes had less than usual, and in the end no patches survived. One of the last patches was at the March Burn on Ben Macdui, huge in July, but of course it faces west and melted rapidly in warm sunshine in afternoons. Braemar had 60 days with snow in 1958-59, well above its winter average, and it was a snowy winter in Glen Esk of Angus, but I recall extremely rapid loss of snow by sublimation in Glen Esk, and in the end no snowbeds survived in Scotland, the first time I'd seen this.

I think Doug makes a very good point about the lack of wind this winter. Although much drifting occurred with the recent storm, earlier snowfalls were marked by little wind and remarkably uniform undrifted powder. Although much of the earlier snowfalls were later shifted by wind, this is not like an initial storm, because much of the blowing snow has been lost by sublimation.

As Firefly points out, a top year for autumn snowbeds ideally requires deep Atlantic depressions with heavy precipitation on gales from SW or nearby such as S and W and NW, when much of the precipitation on lowland is rain or sleet. This is especially so for Lochaber, but important everywhere. We may of course yet see it in March or April or May, but the long-range forecast of a strong anticyclone till at least 20 March is good for skiers and climbers, but not for long-lying snow patches!

The Met Office say this is the coldest snowiest winter in Scotland since 1962-63, and that accords with my experience in NE Scotland. The snowfalls of 62-63 came on predominantly SE winds. Have a look at Firefly's archive of snow-patch photos, search for 1963, and you should see my photos of Garbh Choire Mor in late September, with 4 smallish patches. In the end, only three of them survived."


The thread this was taken from in WH is here.



#178 Norrance

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 19:36

Would 2001 be a quite good example of a poor year for snow retention despite heavy snowfalls in February and March? The reason being that the winds were mostly strong from the North East thus loading the SW facing slopes that are first to melt in the sun.

2000 perhaps being an example of a not particularly snowy Winter that had a large number of retentions due to SW winds?

There must still be a good chance of further snowfalls this year that can pack the NE facing gullies with snow though the short term forecast is not particularly favourable.

#179 Thundery wintry showers

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 19:45

I read the corresponding article in Weather- I recall that only two patches survived in 2001, and indeed judging by the article the reasons were much the same as in 1996. The westerly-dominated 1999/2000 season did indeed lead to very high snow patch survivals- 41 in total if I remember rightly.

The 1958/59 season certainly looks like it was conducive to low patch survivals- certainly from looking through the synoptic charts for that winter, the impression is one of frequent heavy snowfalls from northerly winds in January, and often-dry weather elsewhere in the season with not many cool zonal spells, and then of course there was the long hot summer with high temperatures persisting well into October.

I was wondering about 2010 survivals potentially being low, since unlike last winter (mid-late Jan 2009) we haven't had any marked spells of cool zonal weather over northern Scotland.
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#180 stewfox

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 19:54

View Postfirefly, on 08 March 2010 - 18:48 , said:

Whoops! Must put this thread on 'tracking' mode... Posted Image

..... etc


Great read and useful insight

#181 stewfox

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 13:29

When does one start counting 'snow patches' ? end of June ?

Cant find the 2010 thread yet

#182 CatchMyDrift

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 13:32

View Poststewfox, on 10 May 2010 - 13:29 , said:

When does one start counting 'snow patches' ? end of June ?

Cant find the 2010 thread yet

I think Mondy started one...maybe the mods can do some magic mod weaving of threads?! :lol:

Here: http://forum.netweat...g-snow-patches/

Edited by CatchMyDrift, 10 May 2010 - 13:33 .

Posted by me at 19.05 on the 2nd Jan:

"Looks like yet another bog standard blowy "storm", although one of these times one of these storms has to turn out something special."





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